47. Cheer Up: Is Toxic Positivity Ruining Your Culture? With Dr Maike Neuhaus and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change the Workface with myself Quino Charles. I love what I do. I'm a global leadership coach, a consultant, a trainer, a keynote speaker, a podcaster. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational cultures. I'm here to help you find ways to change your workplace. Why? Because we spend more time in our waking day at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Get ready. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah. And I'm really excited to bring to you today, to this episode, my friend, Dr. Micah Nohouse from Brisbane at the moment. And Micah, welcome. I have a little bit of an introduction to you, if I may. Of course, thank you, Prina. Thank you. Dr. Micah Nohouse is a positive psychologist and self-leadership expert who is passionate about helping driven professionals understand what we need in order to flourish and create a positive change in life. Ain't that what we all want? Brilliant. She does some wonderful work and she wears a couple of hats. Dr. Micah is a co-founder of Edicum Proprietary Limited, which is a company dedicated to creating better leaders through the facilitation of team and self-leadership solutions. And she is also the founder of The Flourishing Dark, a platform through which she supports languishing humans from all over the globe to create a life that excites them again. And I can personally say that she speaks from her own experiences, and you've got some exciting stuff coming up where you're going to be practicing what you're preaching, and you've got a nomad lifestyle coming up, which just sounds amazing. A year off doing what you do with the family. Um, exciting friends today. Welcome. Yeah, we're totally excited. Thank you so much for this lovely intro, Karina. Appreciate it. Pleasure. Micah, today I know you are qualified in all sorts of stuff, and you do a fair bit with workplaces as well, Micah. And today I really want to talk to you about toxic positivity in the workplace. This is something that I have come across, and we started talking about it when we met a couple of weeks ago in Brisbane, and I thought I need to talk to Micah about this officially on this podcast, Micah. Um, so first to us, first off, can you describe to us what toxic positivity is, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Absolutely. So, Prina, basically, toxic positivity is the dismissal of any negative emotion, so-called negative emotion. So things like concerns, fear, you know, sadness or grief or anything like that. And out of the belief that we should always meet life with a positive mindset. So, you know, examples of this might be when you say to someone, I'm really concerned about X, Y, Z, and they just say, Hey, cheer up, I'm sure it'll all be fine. Yeah. So we can be toxically positive with ourselves. And, you know, when we have this negative self-talk and say, I really shouldn't feel this way, I just need to pull myself together, or something like that. Um, but we can also have it with others, and because of that, of course, we can have it in the workplace, and it can really manifest as a culture in a workplace as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Now, Michael, people listening to us might be thinking, Well, I'm positive. I think, you know, half a glass half full. What's wrong with that? There's a difference between being positive and that toxic positivity mindset as well, isn't there? Could you please delineate between the two for people who might be thinking, well, I'm positive, there's nothing wrong with this. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah, well said and good example. So the reason we refer to toxic positivity as toxic is because of this dismissal of negative emotions. So I love a positive mindset, I love a growth mindset, I love optimism, and it's really good for us. But when we're faced with challenges or when we experience negative emotions, um it's important we actually acknowledge them and we look at them. Because at the end of the day, emotions are just data. They're like an inbuilt feedback system we have, right? And there's it's like an alarm going off. Hey, I'm feeling sad, or hey, I have a concern about something. And that's because there is a reason behind that. So, what we need to do is acknowledge that and look at the reason so we can address it. But dismissing it doesn't help anyone, you know, and you can't ever change anything, also in a team, if you dismiss concerns, those concerns won't go away. And I often say to people, it's like living in a house and you have smoke alarms, and the smoke alarms go off and you just turn them off instead of looking at where the smoke is coming from or whether there's maybe a fire somewhere. So eventually, you know, that won't go away. That'll just become bigger. We need to actually address it. So there's a big difference between being positive and being toxically positive. Everything sort of, you know, needs to have a balance. Yep. And you can be positive, um, but that comes after you've actually acknowledged and accepted whatever negative emotion you feel. And to be honest, there are no such things as negative emotions. We just give them labels and we don't like them because they might not feel amazing, but they have a very important place for us, you know, because as I said, they're just like a feedback system, and often they just ring alarm bells to say, hey, you know what, something isn't going in the right direction. I have a concern about this. And we usually have concerns about things because we have past experiences that have taught us a thing or two, right? So it's all about balance and it's all about, you know, we need to feel whatever we feel. And that doesn't mean we dwell on those things and become negative. We need to acknowledge them and deal with them.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Beautiful. I love the description that you give and the analogy of the smoke alarm, especially. So there's toxic posity, which you've just described, and then there's healthy positivity, whereby we actually, yeah, we acknowledge, we listen to those negative feelings that have come up, we don't dismiss them whatsoever, but we address them in whatever whatever ways afterwards, after we've observed and acknowledged them also. We don't just you know ignore altogether. Okay, excellent. Now, Micah, so bring it, we're talking about it from an individual perspective. Um, let's talk about it from a workplace perspective because I have seen it a lot, and from your experience as well. How is uh toxic positivity portrayed within the workplace from your experience and yeah, what you've come across? I yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

So I have to say that I have never experienced a toxically positive uh workplace, luckily. So, but I think I've been very lucky because I can hear many people talk about this and say, I've definitely experienced it. So the way it can manifest in a workplace is of course amongst colleagues, if that's just you know, for a while uh it seems to be quite the fashion to have this positive mindset, and you know, you're being called out as being a pessimist or something like that if if you don't show that. So there might be an expectation, it might be literally almost a little bit fashionable, but it's also, of course, something that leadership portrays, and that might be expected from higher up in the hierarchy. So, and then it can you know manifest itself in, for example, team leaders or executives only sharing the positives of the company and the achievements, yeah, and never sharing anything where they might go wrong, where they failed a little bit, or things they have concern about. Um, another way this can manifest is in meetings, for example, and you'll know you're in a in a toxically positive uh workplace if people never express their concerns. And this is actually hugely concerning because what happens if we have this toxic posity in a workplace is that we have no foundation for psychological safety, and you know how important that is. Without this ability to actually speak up when we when we're nervous about something, when we have concerns about something, whether we've maybe made a mistake, yeah, um, you know, a company won't be able to grow, and also people won't feel safe. And there is so much research to show that you know there are so many negative um impacts from that. So people um, you know, slowly developing mood disorder, so for example, maybe developing anxiety, depression, um, but also you can imagine, you know, having that lack of engagement at some stage, maybe having more days of absenteeism, presented, lack of motivation. It's just not a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

It goes on 100%. So while preparing for this podcast, I've done loads of research and I've got examples and case studies for you. So this is really why I also wanted to have a conversation with you because I wanted to bring some examples to you. So I've seen it in change projects where you know leaders are communicating very positively about the upcoming new world and how exciting things are going to be, but they forget the impact of the change at that individual level and how we all respond to that change. And you know, when our security is threatened, oh my gosh, you're talking to me about positive change. Or as I'm thinking, what the hell? You know, what's going to happen to me? So toxic positivity in that way I've seen in the workplace, which has had a real negative impact exactly on the employee engagement, and therefore it's had a negative impact on the change that the leaders are trying to build as well. Um, Micah, I've seen another one where I've seen people put up with awful, awful jobs and laugh it off by saying things like, ah, well, if I don't laugh, I'll cry. You know, statements like that, which talks to the fact that they might already be crying internally. Um and then I've seen individuals say, Well, I finished nearly two years here, I just have to wait it out. It's okay, really, it's okay. So that false talk to yourself of putting up with crap and toxic posity, you know, uh to yourself. Um, and then, like you said, I've seen others trying to uplift others at work who are not in a good place. They've got good intentions, you know, trying to uplift your colleague, but talking too much and taking it too far on the scale of that toxic positivity. Um, and then Micah, another thing I want to talk to you about in Australia. So we've got a global listenership on this podcast, but in Australia, we have this day, I think it's in October called Are You OK Day, Micah? Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know what your thoughts are uh in relation to this. While I love the concept of having a day such as Are You OK Day, where you focus on the mental health of your workforce, asking such a closed question enlists a closed answer. Um, and it could be reframed to how have you been lately or what's been happening, or yeah, there's other ways of doing it rather than that closed kind of questioning, are you okay? Yes or no is going to be the answer, you know. So those are the kind of examples I have, especially from the real life stuff that I've seen from my clients and where things truly have gone wrong at that organizational level, and then you know, the bullshit that we tell ourselves with that optic positivity as well at that individual level, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Um, I love your examples, Prina. And I just want to say with regard to are you okay, Day, because I think it's an important one. I think this came about because we just need to raise awareness, right, of mental illness, so mental health um challenges. And are you okay, Day? Is just encouraging people to ask each other, no, how are you really? And I think the whole intention behind this is to go beyond the yes or no answer, but to, you know, follow up with how are you really? And I think that, you know, or whatever questions might help you get an understanding of where the other person is at. But of course, in order for the other person to feel safe to actually open up about this, you need that psychological safety. Absolutely. Um, another point that I want to pick up from is that you said rightly just then, often there is a positive intention. And I just want to talk about the intentions or the why behind the positive, uh, the toxic positivity, because it's absolutely true. Often people have really good intentions when they say, Hey, I'm sure it's going to be fine. They think they are supportive, and it is supporting in a way, right? I believe in you, you can do this. Yeah, there are worse things in the world. What we need to understand is that our intention doesn't one-to-one translate into an impact on other people, and we can never help other people change if we don't pick them up from where they are, and invalidating people's emotions or brushing them off um never helps. I'm not a fan often of you know saying this is completely right or this is completely false, but invalidating emotions within ourselves or with other people is never a good idea, yeah. So often it's it's a good intention behind that toxic posity, and it might also be at the organizational level. They don't want to dump concerns onto people who might already feel concerned about a million things in their life. So again, the intentions are always good. Sometimes it can also be a coping mechanism because literally they don't know what to do with that information when someone says, I have really big concern, or I'm not happy, or I feel frightened, or something like that. Yeah. The other person might simply not know how to deal with that. So they might just try to get rid of that by brushing it off and saying, Hey, you got this, I know you can do it. Um, you know, so again, the intention behind it can be really good, but also often it's a coping mechanism. And I said before, I'm a fan of providing balance always in the arguments because the other side of toxic posity is people whining. You know, the right whining, people who are always pessimistic, who are always negative. So, of course, we can talk about that too, because that is also not very healthy. That is also toxic in a way. Of course, we have this nice term toxic positivity, it sells really well, but you can also have toxic negativity. So, you know, we have to remember that when we open up to people with our concerns or our, you know, negative baggage, or with feeling lost, or whatever it might be, this will have an impact on the other person. And we often say it's so important we talk things out, we talk about it, we seek support, but that doesn't give anyone permission to just randomly run into someone and offload their baggage. That can be very heavy and it will be heavy for the other person too. So often it can be a coping mechanism to literally brush it off because that person might not be able to deal with it themselves in that moment. So we have to learn to communicate more effectively and also to set boundaries and to respect each other's boundaries, of course.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah, there's a massive piece at that individual level of self-awareness there as well, and the boundaries element. Um, yeah. I loved what you said about uh going back to invalidating emotions. So I'll give you an example, a real life example here, without naming any names. I've managed a few change projects, especially when I was working internally, uh, Mike in a corporate world, especially in HR. And when these big change projects come about, I'm always very mindful of the impact on that individual. And we're all different, so we're all going to respond to it differently, yeah. So in those change projects, the element that I always use to remind the leaders about is, you know, uh Kubler Ross's grief cycle, the five stages of grief, because when there's change, when something's taken away from us, we grieve. It's a real thing, you know? And I don't know if you've come across Sati is change model, which talks about the various emotions we have within the change process as well. So I used to bring the emotional aspect of change into it, and I'm talking with project managers who are all about go, no, go, live dates, and uh, so that's where uh our world sometimes clashed and didn't marry, but I think it's such an important part to bring into that piece of change at the beginning of the process, so you truly have um a humanistic perspective of change as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

You know, yeah, I love that, and I think it's also the a reason why I often talk about emotions as data, because in those workplaces where then it might not be open to someone like Kubler Ross, uh, you know, and grieve and all the heavy stuff is like hang on a minute, emotions are just data because then we're starting to talk technically and about facts, emotions are just informations, you know, and I think that for many people is very much easier to handle. I think, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

That's a beautiful perspective on it. I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna use that. Yeah. Um, so my next question to you is what are the positive and negative effects of toxic positivity at work? I've got some ideas, I've got some thoughts. Any positive effects of toxic positivity at work first, Micah?

SPEAKER_01 19:03

No, never. And again, I'm not a fan of extremes, but with this one, but that's also, you know, because we're talking about toxic posity. Again, dismissal of any so-called negative emotions is never a good idea. Yeah, so toxic positivity, there is never anything good about it. Positivity, now we can talk because positivity and optimism, of course, they are hugely valuable. And these are at the core of a lot of the work I do. So, you know, maybe if we store if we talk about positivity, one thing I will like to do is to distinguish it from, you know, that just that positive mindset. Let's talk for a minute about positivity practices. And actually, I need to go one step back because everything we've been covering so far is basically the pinnacle of emotional intelligence. Yes. So some of your listeners, or most of them, might be familiar with um Daniel Goldman's uh model of emotional intelligence, and basically what it is, it has four elements self-awareness and self-management, and social awareness and relationship management. So when we talk about toxic positivity, we can have that within ourselves and we can have that in our relationships with others, right? So in terms of positivity practices, this becomes a self-regulation tool. So talking about our own self-awareness and our own self-management or self-regulation.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

And we can use positivity practices to regulate our emotions from feeling stressed and nervous or even sad to feeling balanced again and in control and calm, right? Yeah. But these positivity practices, if we are upset, if we are stressed, if we are anxious, always start with mindful awareness. So we have to look at what is going on. That doesn't mean we identify with the emotion, it's exactly the opposite. We kind of take a step back, look at it, and go, hey, instead of saying, I am anxious, I am sad, you say, I notice that I am feeling sad again, or something like that. So you take that distance and then you go, okay, you acknowledge that you are more than the emotion, and then you can look at okay, what is it that is triggering these emotions? Um, is there any, you know, relevance to it? For example, you know, is this just an old me or my inner critic coming up and trying to, I don't know, tear me down or something like that? Or is there something valid about it? And if so, what can I do about it? Um, so this, for example, is the beginning of a positivity practice. A lot of the other positivity practices are then to regulate your nervous system. So, for example, going for a walk, going outside, doing A quick mindfulness practice or like a short meditation, listening to music, doing some breathing exercises. So those are all evidence-based tools we can use to regulate ourselves, regulate our emotions, get out of that, you know, fight or flight response or something like that, and put our brain back into a situation where we can actually think logically and reason and make those very good decisions. So those are actually what are called positivity practices. So they help us regulate our emotions. And then when we and then we can talk about optimism because what we often mean when we talk about positivity is optimism. And what I would like your listeners to be able to distinguish here is there's basically two different types of optimism. One is um what we often just refer to, that general optimism of just confidence that something is going to turn out well in the future. And this could be, for example, I'm optimistic that the weather is going to be fine next week. Okay. Very much in contrast to that is something called learned optimism. Right. And this has got to do with feeling positive about something in the future turning out great because of my own input. So this is now very different qualitatively because here I am having some kind of control over the situation. Okay, this future event comes down to my own actions.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

And what determines that optimism, whether or not we are optimistic or we have that learned optimism, depends on a number of different things. So part of that might be genetic, but it's of course our um our learned experiences from the past. So for example, if I know in the past I've had a similar challenge and I know I've overcome that, and I can look at what I've done to overcome that, of course, I'll feel more optimistic, optimistic about the upcoming challenge as well, because I know I have a higher level of self-efficacy, of confidence in my own ability to overcome challenges, and I know I'll be able to address that again too. So just to give you an example, and we know from research that having optimism is, of course, is great, is actually associated with so many positive outcomes that we also refer to it as the velcro construct, because it's like optimism is like a Vulcro that all the other positive outcomes just stick to.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

But with any optimism, you can be realistically optimistic or you can be unrealistically optimistic. So if in the past you've failed, you know, you failed all your tests at uni, why should you be optimistic about the upcoming test? Maybe it's better to actually listen into maybe a little bit of anxiousness because in that moment it can actually help you prepare better. So, you know, there's a difference.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Absolutely. And those negative emotions, as we call them, negative actually help us and they spur us on, like this example you just gave for the exams. Um, I had to think about the positive and negative effects of toxic positivity at work. And all of the positives I had weren't in relation to toxic posity. It was about optimism as you have redefined it. So optimism, so not yeah, not toxic posity. So optimism, a good thing about it is that you share a vision of what could be something that people often don't consider when they've been posed with impending changes, you know, and changes to their security. Another optimistic thing could be that you could help people reframe their thinking as well with your new and novel way of thinking potentially at work. Another optimistic thing could be to open up good conversations, given the person is speaking, and open to listening as well, you know, when they do share whatever new news. Um, and like you said, with the negative effects of toxic positivity, we're ignoring the problem or the issue at hand at work, and we're never gonna address it and therefore never gonna solve it. So it's gonna keep on biting us on the bum again and again. Um, people feel dismissed. And when we feel dismissed about our feelings, especially, what's gonna happen? I'm gonna clam up. That's it, right? And from a human level, you know, you know that in relationships, in personal relationships, it's really tough. Bring that into the workplace and we're talking with leaders. My gosh, that leader's job is gonna be even harder to regain that trust and the psychological safety, and their own reputation is gonna be affected also if we're so dismissive as a leader. Um, then I've seen also, Michael, uh, the spiraling effect of this toxic posity in the workplace where gossip starts, you know, to fill that void. I'm gonna make up a story now myself. And then, you know, the the culture really changes. Um and then, you know, like you've already talked about that psychological safety aspect, and that really talks to your organizational culture and how negatively that is affecting your organizational culture essentially.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Absolutely, and not to forget that you know, organizations want to thrive. If there is a threat to anything, you know, a project or anything, you know, even or within the team if there's a concern, organizations are, you know, they have an interest in knowing about this. Yeah, so dismissing people's concerns about anything, an upcoming project, whatever it might be, bites them back. So again, there's never anything positive about toxic positivity, not at all. And that's even, you know, and that's just looking at it from the perspective of the organization trying to achieve its objectives. Yes, we're not even now talking about psychological safety or what this does with the individual people where it's so detrimental as well, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yes, and that's so it's so important to be addressed, yeah. And we haven't talked about the other aspect of people taking this stuff home and then it impacts the family, you know, family, kids, and beyond, and then it impacts our community. So this just it is it has such a flow-on effect that I could talk about this forever and ever. Yeah. Um you already shared with us some really practical and useful ways of uh having a more realistic sense of posity. So that optimism that you talk to. Um from a workplace perspective, I reckon you know, from an organizational perspective, organizations can create a shared language. So I'm talking organizational culture here. So, you know, create a shared language of the kind of culture that you desire. So it's genuine and it's not, you know, BS language. Um, accept and acknowledge that not so great stuff that's happening within your organization. Talk about it, don't ignore it, like you're saying, because this is data. If you look at it as that, I think if you have one takeaway, take that as your takeaway. This is data, it's not to be ignored. Um, and for the individuals listening, have a peer network that you can rely upon. So I used to have lots of close people at work that I can go and debrief to. Now, there's a big difference when we're feeling yucky of debriefing and gossiping. So very careful there in relation to not treading, go or offending, yeah, or offending others.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Absolutely, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yes, that's it. And Michael, for the HR people listening, I was thinking to design a strong employee experience, consider considering all of the milestones of the employee lifecycle and the touch points, and considering how it can be a truly genuine experience, you know. So there's so much work that organizations can do in relation to being optimistic.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Absolutely. And I love all the you know, all the tips you just sort of shared and also summarize. And I think it all starts with raising awareness as well. So if you if you think as a workplace, you know, you you might have an issue with this, then start, you know, with a program, with some training, raise awareness. But also, of course, um, you know, some a blanket rule you can use for anyone for within themselves or in their relationship to other people, never invalidate anyone's emotion. So instead of saying things like, hey, cheer up, at least say, I can help, I can see why that might be challenging for you, or I hear you. Is there anything I can do to help you? You know, or is there anything you've tried to, you know, maybe address this? Because that sounds really tough. That's very, very different to straight away jumping in with that positivity. But also, I think a lot of this comes down to role modeling. And so when we're talking, we have, you know, I know a lot of your listeners are leaders as well, yeah, directly inviting people's opinions and their honest opinions. So if someone raises concern, never dismiss it, acknowledge it, validate it, maybe dig deeper, certainly address it and and thank them for it. If you do, well, there's your positive reinforcement, and other people will understand implicitly that it's okay to raise concerns. Yeah, you know, so I think that's very important. But also, you know, you can also role model the way you talk to other people, um, and also you can role model the way you enforce your own boundaries by saying things like, Hey, you know, if you, if you, you know, remember when yesterday in that meeting you said you raised this and that concern, this is how it made me feel in that moment. Um, you know, this is the impact it had on me. Uh, you know, I'd appreciate if maybe next time before you voice something like that, you could maybe give me a warning or like a heads up or something like that, because then I can prepare myself emotionally. Or, you know, you can do the same just uh in the one-on-one with other people before to help people understand that venting impacts you and you're not always ready for it. You don't always have the headspace to it. You're more than willing to be open for them and help them through their concern, but they also need to, you know, understand and respect the impact it has on you. So, again, we can role model that in the way that we communicate our boundaries with others as well. So, I think that's just what I'd add to that as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

That's beautiful, and what a deeper and richer conversation that creates and a better, better connection between me and you, also, than if we've had that conversation. Wow, that's what we want. Absolutely. Micah, I could talk to you forever, but I have one final, very important question for you. Sure. If I was to give you a magic wand, what is one way you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_01 33:19

That is a very, very big question, Prina. And I I have to say I'm really struggling with big questions like that. And I think I could think about this for days and weeks on end and not come to one final answer because I think what's so intriguing about the workplace is that it's so complex. You know, I could say I would just install psychological safety in everyone, but then you know exactly how some people are going to behave, they're just going to sit back and watch and not do anything. So it's like you offer one solution, but then you have maybe other problems that need addressing too, right? True. So I think for me, maybe one way that kind of maybe summarizes everything would be to crank up everyone's flourishing meter. And I'll explain with you um what what I mean by that. So from a very young age, I've been absolutely fascinated by people who, you know, by the fact that it seems like some people thrive while others run from one hurdle into the next. I don't know, I've always observed that as a young kid. And I've been fascinated by people who've had either severe trauma or a near-death experience. I know this sounds a bit morbid, yeah, but what I found so intriguing by that is that they often reported afterwards that for them it's been like a flick had been switched. Or or um, you know, like uh or or sorry, a switch had been flicked. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. So basically, you know, like as if we all carry this invisible switch that has zombie on one side and flourishing or being fully alive on the other. Because they say due to that experience, they feel like they're now living every day as if it's the greatest gift, right? And they would never waste their time and they they dare to make mistakes and they try everything that they know if they never try, they'd regret. So for me, cranking up that flourishing meter from zombie to fully alive is basically what I sort of made my profession to help people with. And what it does is that people take responsibility for their own lives, but it also means that they seek experiences that are naturally enriching for them, and that includes their work as well. So if they're now in a workplace working for an organization, they know exactly why they're there because they understand their values and how their values align to the organization, right? And they just they take responsibility for their own action and they don't waste their own time and they also don't waste other people's time. They have an interest in being efficient in their communication, in their work, or everything else. So I think that was a very long answer to say at Crank Up, everyone's flourishing, Meter.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Amazing, yes. Moving from zombie to flourishing and Micah, I know people may have questions for you, so I'm gonna put all of your details in the show notes as well. So go stalk. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time and so much information that you've shared with us. I really appreciate it. How good was that episode? If you also stand against crappy workplace cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams, you need to join the Ways to Change Your Workplace Facebook group, which is linked in the show notes. I'll meet you at the next episode. Ciao for now.