60. Finding The Hidden Influencers In Your Organization with Brendon Baker and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with Myself Preenashah, where we uncover today how you can find ways to optimize your organizational cultures. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself Preenasha. And I'm really excited to have Brendan Baker from Canberra with us today. Brendan, our guest today, works on all things change. And you know what? Change is hard. We all have a tendency to overcomplicate it. But by all metrics, current best practices are just not working. As most of us actually truly know, they are confusing, they're complex, and unnecessarily academic. A change is needed in the way we lead change. Yes, Brendan, I'm so excited to be talking to you today. And that's where Brendan comes in. So, Brendan Baker is challenging the idea that change needs to be driven top down and administered with a ton of complexity. It need not be that way. Brendan's pioneering work in the internal influencer space is world leading. Brendan is the author of the best-seller book, Valuable Change, and a niche top seller creating high-value PMOs. He has consulted on over $10 billion in key transformative projects, change projects across a huge range of industries and organizations. And Brendan's clients vary from high-growth tech firms to household names like AGL and South32, the big Australian names, as well as all three levels of the Australian government. Brendan is a busy person. Brendan, welcome. Hello.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Hello. Hello.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Brendan, today I want to talk to you about all things change and really how we can either find the hidden influences in your organization and basically how we can leverage these subcultures to accelerate your change. And just a bit of a caveat here, I came across Brendan through our mutual friend Leanne Hughes, who also has another podcast called The First Time Facilitator and Work and Live Large. And uh when Brendan, Leanne and I were on a group call, Brendan said something about change, and I talked about subcultures. And I think this is where this conversation will marry Brendan. So welcome, first off. You do wonderful work. Tell us why you do it, Brendan.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Well, you I mean, you've you've started to cover some of that in the intro, which is nice, but frankly, I've spent my entire career around organizational change and in all of its many forms. Yeah. You know, whether it's whether it's a restructure, whether it's a new culture, whether it's a new IT system, whether it's whatever it is that you're trying to, you know, process overhaul, whatever. Um, I've spent my career on it. And what I've discovered was that it's hard. And it is it is really hard. People find change hard. Organizations find change hard. Leaders find change hard. And I'm not here to say it's going to become easy. It's not. But what it doesn't have to be is overly complex. And maybe I'm a little bit cynical here in that, but I think that the industry in general has overcomplicated it and it's become too academic. And I mean, it's very easy to sell a course or a textbook when you've got all of these strategies and techniques and all of these things, right? Um, but it doesn't have to be that complex. Uh the majority of change that we're driving through our organizations as leaders not need the, you know, the three, four, five different textbooks that that are that are on this. Uh, you just need some really simple, holistic style strategies. And so that's why I do what I do. And that's what valuable change is all about. It's about ensuring that the change doesn't just deliver what it's meant to do, but rather it actually delivers why you're doing it. It delivers on why you're doing it. It actually achieves what you want it to achieve and does so as small and precise and easily as much as possible, but definitely as simply as possible.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Amazing, Brendan. Because, you know, thinking back to my corporate days, and you know, change is what I worked on also, you know, culture change essentially. However, when we're working on change, the majority of us have many, many awful stories about failed change projects. And the majority of us can, you know, put our hands up to say, oh my gosh, I remember the millions of dollars that were spent on that project and how it bombed. And that is often due to overcomplication, red tape, and so much more that people get caught up with. Um, I mean, Brendan, the other thing while you were talking, I was writing, there's two things, change really is hard. And change is hard, I guess, in two respects for the people who are trying to lead it or drive that change, first off, and then change is hard for the people who are being, you know, uh, the change is imposed upon me. So if it's that kind of change as well, there's that tension, I guess, that it creates also. So there's a lot of elements to change and the world that we work in now, Brendan, it's about continuous change. This is the new norm, or this is the norm now, really. It's how it is.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And that's the thing, change is hard, but and ultimately it takes a toll. And and like you, I've seen so many failed changes. Uh, every you know, everything from a couple of hundred thousand all the way through up to a hundred million dollar style failed changes and everything in between. And that takes a toll. I mean, change takes a toll anyway, it takes a toll on the morale on your staff and their enthusiasm and their internal momentum. And if if at the end of that you don't actually achieve what you're trying to achieve as a leader, then it's been a severely net negative uh experience for everyone. Um, and we can do better than that.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Absolutely. And you know, that that negative change that happens, that that's on that leader's brand as well. That stays with you, uh, you know, if you remain within the organization as well. So that's the other thing. Um, Brendan, I want to ask you. So, you know, I work on culture change and you work on all sorts of change. And I feel that change and culture go together like P B and J is how I say it. Peanut butter and jam, the English way, is how I say it. So while change and culture go together, organizations still mess it up, right? Do you have any thoughts as to why? I've got some ideas, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Yeah, yeah. Well, in fact, I was going to ask you, how do you how do you personally define culture and what tends to be the stumbling blocks that you see? Because I have a strange feeling that it's going to be very, very similar.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Ah, interesting. How do I define culture? So that's a really good question. For every organization is the DNA of what you do and how you do. So simplifying culture, you know, it's the unwritten rules of belonging as to why we're here within this space, within this uh thing that we're calling our organization or our team. So you can break down culture, Brendan, to a team perspective, to your branch, to your organization. Okay. Um, and then uh the way I work with organizations is because every single organization has their own DNA, so to speak. I'd like to understand what that is and then influence change based on that DNA rather than using a generic. Let's use Quatter, let's use ProSai, you know, the best of change principles that people get really hung up with. I would rather work with the lead team, the C-suite, or whoever the change makers are to understand the outcome that they're trying to get to. I think that's the biggest part of it. Then we can work out how to get there through various different methods and you know, uh techniques. So I think I'm more outcome focused and I change the way I work based on the C-suite or my client or the organization's need, because I don't think that you can approach it with a vanilla cookie-cutter approach.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

I think you're absolutely spot on it. And especially honing in on that outcome of focus, I mean, I tend to think about change uh and whatever change you're driving, I tend to think about it in terms of ripples.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Where it it ripples forward, right? And and it's interesting. Um one of the areas that keeps being forgotten is the the inner ripple. But but first of all, I'll describe the ripples, then you've got a little bit of context. I've got this lovely picture in my mind. Let me let me see if I can describe it for you. Okay. So essentially there's there's three ripples. The the center ripple is what I call the change core. And that's all about making sure that you're clear on what why you're changing, how you plan to prove success, and what you're what you're doing in that order. Don't don't don't answer that in reverse order. Uh, that's a very quick way to uh do more than you need to do. Um, but why you why you're changing, how you need how you plan to prove it, and what exactly are you doing? That builds your core. And that's all about clarity. Yes, that's your first ripple area. And then the second ripple area, which kind of ripples out, that clarity ripples out. Yeah, and it ripples out into your teams. And the these are the teams, this is essentially inside your change. These are the teams that are driving the change with you as a leader. And in there, I mean, you've got the project management, you've got delivery, you've got governance, you've got those elements in there. And we all seem to be fairly good at that. I mean, there's always room for improvement, uh, and we tend to overcomplicate that as well. But uh, that said, that seems to be where everyone's focus lies. Yeah. Um, but what's often forgotten in that second ripple, and this is where I that I that I think it really aligns in with culture, is there's an element of team momentum and team morale that needs to be maintained inside that ripple.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

And if you lose that team momentum and team morale, that negativity or that flatness will ripple through into everyone else you're trying to influence and change, which is the final ripple, right? The final ripple is outside of your change, the people that you're influencing, the people that will ultimately need to adopt or change or whatever needs to be the case there. And and so that ripples through. If if you don't get the clarity right up front, that's going to ripple through to your team. And they're going to eventually they will start asking, well, why are we doing this? Because this is hard, right? It's hard work and change is full of resistance. And because it's a high friction, high resistance style uh thing to do, yeah. Um, if you're not clear, if you don't get that inner ripple right, then that ripples through and people start to go, well, why are we doing this? Let's not bother. And then that cynicism or that that lack of clarity will ripple out to the people that they're then talking to. And so you're going to get that flatness. And so you're then going to increase the resistance across everyone you're trying to influence across this change. And it's that ripple through. And so, in terms of where the culture comes in, it's absolutely working with the culture and preserving the culture within your team, but it's also understanding the culture in that outer uh ripple as well, and finding the right people on those right subcultures to identify and link into and enlist as part of that third ripple.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Boom. Uh, Brendan, I've got an example. So while you were talking, I had an aha moment. I remember working on supporting an executive team with a merger, and this merger it was it was difficult in that there were diplomacy issues, and the organization that was being essentially taken over had a really bad culture, an awful, you know, it went out to the media, everyone knew about it, so they were hurt anyway, right? So, with this change project, what the um PMO, the change manager, decided to do is yes, they had all of the, you know, they had PMO, they had delivery, they had governance, they had comms within the team, but then they brought me in as the conduit between that change team and the real people on the ground, and bridging the gap as to what was happening and relaying back both ways also um, pain points, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And I think often that's the missing piece within um culture change projects. I think even just generally change. Any kind of change impacts your culture. Let's be honest. You know, transformation is the sexiest new word. Transformation is change, really. Um, and then Brendan, the other thing I wanted to talk to you about as well is that in an organization, often culture is ill-defined. So while you're talking about defining change, if you haven't defined your culture, that's gonna be even harder to define your change. Because who are you? What is your DNA? And then the other thing I find is yes, okay, we're gonna have this massive transformation project. Let's pick up the culture language and the culture work now. It's too late by then. You need to maintain this language and you know, this momentum on all of your culture work and your culture spiel, your comms, everything. It should be every day, rather than picking it up when uh-oh, Brendan's coming in to help us. Let's talk culture now as well. Um, that's when I've seen change really fall, uh, unfortunately. And I've seen it work really well when an organization has that culture in mind throughout whatever they do. Um, so I love the way that you weave it in with your, you know, your circle analogy of that clarity in the middle and then external, and we grow go out to ripple effect in that respect. Um, Brendan, what are your thoughts on, you know, every organization has subcultures or these internal influences within the organization in relation to change? Do you have any thoughts on these special people within the organization?

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, absolutely. Uh absolutely. And I mean, you you mentioned this in the intro, is that this this is this is quite an interesting space because we're all if we're playing in that outer ripple, how do we influence other people, right? The idea of a change champion or a change advocate is fairly well-trodden. We all know it. Uh, and it, but how do you how do you typically come up with change champions? It's either volunteered or voluntold, right? It's nudge nudge that you're the one to do that, or it's hey, hey, pick me, pick me, I really want to do this, which you know, that enthusiasm is great, but they may not be the right person. Yeah, um, there's a better way. And uh so permission to dive into a little bit of science here, and then I'll pull this back up. So um Albert Leslie Barabashi's written a few books, but he's a uh he's a Boston professor. Um, and I think he's still a Boston, but anyway, so he's written a few books and he's a network scientist. And what he has discovered is that every human-made network has the same pattern that underpins it. And to help you uh think of this pattern, essentially it's a hub and node pattern where you've got a small amount of connective hubs and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of connective nodes that are that are connected to them, which which have much smaller connections to help visualize this. Think about the internet. How do you, Kruna, how do you go to any website on the internet?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

I just Google it.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yes, yes, and that's it, right? You you go to Google and Google is the connective hub, but there's also Facebook, Amazon, if you wanted to go into in respective ways that way. Uh, if you're a Bing user, I don't know, all 10 of you, um, you know, you go via Bing or Yahoo or Astro. But essentially there are these key connective hubs, which allow you to get where you want to go. They're the ones that uh essentially connect it all together. What's interesting is that that same pattern applies in our society.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

There are people in our societies and people in our organizations that are connective hubs that are performing that connective role. Um, you've heard of six degrees of six degrees of separation.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

That's why that works. Because you kind of send it to someone to go, oh, I they probably will know someone who will be able to get closer to that, right? And eventually, I mean, they've tested this 10 times over the last two decades, and every single time it roughly comes in, there are six degrees of separation between anyone on the earth. It's really, really exciting and really interesting stuff. But the other thing about this pattern is that it's fractal, and that means it's re it repeats however you slice and dice our society. Yeah, so in your team of 30 or your group of 150 or your organization of 2000, this pattern is at play. There are people performing those connective roles. Those people are your internal influencers, and then they are the most efficient and most effective people to enlist as change champions. Right? So, how do we find them? Yes, that's the next question. How do we find them? For that, I uh I borrow a little bit from uh social science. There's a technique in social science uh called snowball sampling.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Have you heard of it? No, no, okay. Well, essentially, snowball sampling is is an idea that when you want to survey a group um of people, that you don't know how big the group is. You don't know how like you don't know if it's 100, 200, 300 people. So, for example, you wanted to survey the homeless population in a city. You don't know how many homeless there are, but you want to survey and you want to get a good breadth across it. So, what you do is you survey them, and then at the end of the survey, you say, Hey, can you give me three more names, please, of your you know, friends who who I should also survey? And they give you three names, and then the next person gives you three more, and the next person gives you three more, and you get you start building out almost a pyramid, right? Um, but you essentially start building out and and aggressively getting through what is the sample size without knowing how big it is. It's snowballs, hence snowball sampling. What we want to do with these influences is kind of reverse snowball sampling. We want to find them, and the best way to find them is to get their peers to nominate them.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

And so there's something interesting that with snowball sampling, in theory, the first person gives you three names and then there's three people, and they give you three names, and then there's nine people, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

But what's the likelihood that they give you in a completely unique set of names? Unlike super high, right? You're probably getting backlinks.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

And so that's that's it's those backlinks that is interesting for us to find these people because the more often a name comes up, yes, the more likely that they are a key connector, the more likely that they are one of these connective hubs, one of these internal influencers, right? So that's what we're looking for.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

It's just sorry, it's simple, it's brilliant, it makes complete sense. Ask the people, and then yes, that's how you really truly find out who on the ground is the connector or are the connectors within your organization. The influencers, really. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

And we can do it in two questions. Yeah, just two questions.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

So if we we look at what makes someone more likely to be a connector, yeah, they are either an information broker, i.e., people go to them for information, yeah, or they're a value adder. People want to be around them because they add value to what they're doing in their domain, in their culture, in their whichever, right? So those are the two key elements. So all you've got to do to find these people is ask two questions. You you go to your group of staff and you ask them, number one, if you could work on any project of your choosing, which three people would you choose to work on this project with?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

And what you're going to get there is the value adders.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Because they're not going to choose anyone that's dead weight.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

No.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Now the value may be in, it may not be work value, it might be social value, it might be something else, but there will be value in having those people on board. Then the next question we ask is who do you go to for news, updates, and gossip?

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Uh-huh. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

That's your information broker.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

And so then you ask those two questions, you tally the names, and the people that come up on top, they're your internal influences.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

This is brilliant. Um, Brendan, in relation to question two, who do you go to for news, uh, updates and gossip? I know some HR people listening to this are going to think, oh my God, you can't ask that question. However, let's uh bust that miss. I think those people on the ground who do have all of the news, who do have all of the updates, who do have all of the gossip, are really worthwhile people. And often they're seen as the troublemakers of the organization, let's just say. But these are the people who have such influence, don't they? Um and that and their word often means a lot to others, and they they have that trust of people within the organization on the ground. As well. So we cannot discount those people. And absolutely, which three people would you like on your ideal project? Yes, those are the ones to go to as well. Brendan, I might add another third element to this as well. I think one thing that organizations fail to do is especially when we're talking about culture change in this respect, Brendan, is organizations fail to listen to the naysayers. And I feel that those people, you know, who make a loud noise do have something worthwhile to say. And I feel if we listen to their objections, we are going to learn so much from it. Yeah, you might not agree from it. Um, but do you have any thoughts on naysayers, especially in related to change and you know, this culture conversation that we're having, Brendan, from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And in fact, it's it's a common thing. But when I talk about this kind of concept with the clients, they often think, oh, yeah, we'll find the key people that we'll run that and we'll find the key, you know, key internal influences, which as a side note, not all of them are outspoken. Sometimes you're finding the hidden, uh more introverted style people, which is really, really useful. Um, but they'll think, oh, yeah, we'll find all of the people. Yeah. Uh, and then we'll pick the ones that align with our mission and we'll get them on board. Yeah. And that's where my very first word of caution is no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's really valuable to identify the pockets of resistance and who the internal influences are in those pockets of resistance. Yes. Like, because that way you could you know who you need to put your effort and energy into in terms of shifting that entire pocket. Because if you enlist the influencer, yeah, you enlist the entire pocket. Right. It's it's just because people will respect them, they trust them, and they go, oh, if if if Jane has has, you know, if Jane's on board, maybe this is actually a good idea. Right. And there'll be a little bit more, you know, there'll be less reluctance and more acceptance in terms of let's try it. Right. And so finding these influences really it's it's really beneficial because it's non-political in terms of it's not necessarily people that are aligned, they're not yes people.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

They are just people who hold respect and connective power. And you identify the people with the connective power, and then you get to figure out well, are they pro or are they against?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Uh, and work on work accordingly and work with them accordingly.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Connective power, I love that term, Brendan, and so many people do have connective power that aren't really utilized with change or culture change, especially. And I think that's a massive missing piece within organizations, because of the fact that you also talked about, you know, usually in a committee or you know, a change program, people select the people that they want to. Then we end up with groupthink as well. And where is the pushback? Where is the internal conflict and the healthy internal debate? And the people who raise their hands and say, Well, actually, that's not going to land well because blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, we need that extra context, and sometimes we do need negativity and pushback as well to challenge us to lead that change in the right way and in the right manner. Um, Brendan, do you have any projects that you can talk to, any practical tips or anything uh in relation to how your clients or you know, any good success stories, because we often hear about the bad bad stories. Do you have success stories that you can share where culture change has been driven from a different way in a different manner?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah, yeah. So something I'm working with a few clients on at the moment uh is essentially decentralizing change. Uh, and a lot of these clients um have been through multi-year transformations and they've driven it top down for and and and sometimes it's been successful and sometimes it hasn't. Um, but what what what I'm working with them on is how do we decentralize and how do we sustainably make change the way we do things here? Right. And do it sustainably and do it so it's embedded. And so that uh that that's really interesting because essentially you've got to you've got to look at three things. Uh and this is what I'm doing with these clients is first of all, the the nature of hierarchical power needs to shift.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Hierarchical power needs to shift uh to becoming an enabler and a supporter, yeah, more than a driver in this change space. The power of that drive needs to shift to those influences. Yeah. And so you identify the key influences and you you and we are rallying them together into key change leadership groups, skilling up them as scaling up the capability, giving them the tools and techniques and support and whatnot that they need so that they can drive that internally. And so you've got these people with connective power, with value-adding power driving the change within their areas.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

And then finally, the third thing that we're looking at together is how do we shift the individual? How do we ensure that that the individual is most aligned with um with this new culture of change? And that is all about how can we get them sharing stories and listening to stories? And it's all about leveraging storytelling. Um, uh, and and I mean, a few, there's newsletters, there's a bunch of things in there, but a few things I'm looking at with my clients at the moment is maybe it's a private internal podcast focused on uh in this change leadership, or maybe it's something different, right? And and so that's that's the three levels, and that's what I'm working with my clients on. And the the early indicators, as I said, these are current, uh, but it's exciting. Um, the early indicators is that this is really beneficial and and it's it's very exciting, uh, really, really exciting uh across these groups of people.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Wow, that's really that's so powerful because Brendan, I know obviously you work in Canberra, so you no doubt work with a lot of government entities as well. So when we're talking about hierarchical organizations, Brendan, you are asking them to do something that is really against what they've been trained and taught, and you know, but this is how we always do it here. I am a level blah blah, and you're asking a level blah blah to do this. So, you know, often organizations refer to people as levels, not as people, um, also. So you are really changing the way that they uh behave in a change uh project, really, and giving the power back to the people in that respect. That's gonna be brilliant to see how that evolves and the uptake of that change as a result as well is going to be something really different.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Yes, yeah. I mean, even if you think through the ripples, right, where you've got this, well, these are the people that are influencing the these are people that need to be influenced by the change as that final ripple. But what what if you if you decentralize the change and have it driven by influencers, which is what we're doing, yeah, you're essentially squishing the ripples, you're making it smaller, you're bringing it all closer together, and you're all and you're leveraging existing patterns of connective power and trust and respect. Um, and that's that's really powerful. So uh yeah, it's it's been really exciting. Um, really, really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

And I love the idea. So you talk to storytelling and stories, you know, in relation to change, and that's how we bring people on the journey, so to speak, as well. And you know, your idea of the internal podcast. Oh my gosh, that is a genius idea. Um, and then you also talk to newsletters, and newsletters are something that I'm a bit mm about because we get so much, you know, from that internal perspective that people often just ignore a newsletter. So, what is different? Something such as an internal podcast, or I don't know, other different ways of engaging with people when you are making such a change or continually engaging with your people in a different manner. That'll be interesting to see how an internal podcast turns out, Brendan, because I think we are so time poor often that short snippet podcasts from an internal perspective would be really interesting to deploy. Um Brendan, you've shared so many tips and practical ideas with us in relation to how we can marry change and culture and how we can use these internal influences and these various subcultures within our organization. I have one final question for you, Brendan. If I was to hand you, Brendan Baker, a magic wand, what is one way you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_01 30:49

I would remove the fear that underpins uh I would remove the fear that formality hides. So formal documents, formal meetings, formal this and that. And what it so much of that is fear-driven. And and what the result of that is you get bad ideas getting too much traction, too much time, and you get good ideas getting ignored because they've not proposed the right way. Yeah. Right. Uh, so I would strip out a whole heap of formality.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Oh my gosh, so many leaders hide behind the memo or the approval or whatever. Let's just, I'm doing this on video, let's just rip it up, Brendan. That is brilliant. Yes, Brendan, thank you so much for your time. This is going to be so valuable for our listeners. Brendan, I'm gonna put your details in our show notes and um I'm gonna ask you about the study that you referred to as well. So I'll add that in the show notes um because that is going to be something fascinating for people to learn more about. Thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Uh thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

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