69. The Skills You Need During Turbulent Times with Bethan Winn and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah. This episode is a really good one. Get comfy and let's do this. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah. And today I am speaking with Beth Ann Wynn, who is an expert in decision making, in helping people deal through turbulent times. Bethane, I want to talk to you today about the skills that you need in turbulent times. So high-level content we'll talk about. And I apologize in advance. I've got a gardener outside, so if you hear any loud noises, that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Well, there you go. There's good delegation skills to start with, Prina.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Exactly. Just letting you know. But Bessa, before we kick into it, can you give me and the people who are listening? We have listeners around the globe as well, Bessa, an introduction to yourself and what you do and why you do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

All right, so what I do, I do critical thinking and I package that up as it were as decision making and problem solving. My accent's from the UK. I'm from Wales originally and then moved around England and then I've been in Perth for 10 years. And my background's in education. I worked at UWA for many years, and prior to that I was a high school teacher. So I bring a bit of a different angle to today doing some stuff with schools and universities, but also with corporates, small business, and adapting what are hugely transferable skills to lots of different scenarios, so different professions, and helping people, as you mentioned, with decision making and problem solving specifically, and applying their critical thinking skills to whatever situation faces them.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

There was a why, wasn't there? Why do I do this? Why? Why do you do it?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yeah, and so important in especially current times. And for our audience, I actually met Bethane Gosh last year, sometime it must have been. And we were introduced by someone else who I still haven't met, but Bethane and I had a coffee and we've hit it off and just kept in touch since. And I love your work, and you really speak to my values.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

We both definitely shared before how training it's more of an experience than a like just learning opportunity. It's about making it real memorable, holistic, transferable tools that people can go away and get enormous value from in their professional life, but also in their personal lives as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Absolutely. Thank you for the beautiful intro to yourself, Bethane, and explaining your why as well. So I want to talk to you about the skills that you need in turbulent times. But before we begin, turbulent times we currently live in them, whether it be from my perspective, the pandemic. The other thing as well, Bethany, that I help organizations with is organizational culture. And we're hearing a lot in the Australian media as well as you know, global media, about workplace cultures which are not the best. And that really, really affects employees and it's turbulent in so many respects. In terms of turbulent times, is there anything else you want to add to that yourself, Bethel?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Oh gosh. Well, I guess the pace of change, whether it's the pandemic or whether it's technology or anything else, the pace of change that we're all dealing with is enormous. And you ask most people, you say, do you think it's gonna get faster or slower? And everyone's like, it's just gonna speed up. You know, we just have to look back through history to see that pattern again and again. So no matter what kind of curveballs international economics or the pandemic or climate change or whatever it is that's gonna come at us, we know that we need to be very flexible in our approach. I kind of think of it as like rolling with the punches. And some of us thrive on that. And I've got to admit, like, in a not in a nasty way at all, but like when the going gets tough, I get going. I'm like, okay, focus, get things done. And some of us need to learn to thrive through that. So I can see different skills, whether it's critical thinking, lateral thinking, flexible thinking, whatever you want to call it, just being able to quickly adapt to scenarios as they change, is such a valuable skill that everybody needs, no matter what level of decision making or problem solving you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Amazing, beautiful. And this really talks to what I talk to in change. You can either react to change positively or the worst of you will come out, you know, especially in the workplace context. And then everything you just talked about also talks to resiliency tools, resiliency tactics. And being resilient is something that you can learn at any time in life, even you have the right tools and the right options to learn from.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yeah, and I think the right incentives, you know, sometimes some points in our lives we're quite comfortable, we're happy not stretching ourselves. And then at other points, I think when the pain point, whatever that thing is, gets so bad, you go, right, I have to do something about this. And we need that little run-up towards the change often to kind of mentally prepare ourselves, and then also the kindness to ourselves that you know, change is hard, particularly personal change, habit change, and it takes a long time. So just like approaching it and like incrementally changing things so that we change the story that we tell ourselves. So if some of your listeners are going, oh, I'm I'm not good at change, I'm not very resilient, then they're not going to be good at change and resilient because that's their narrative. So I work quite a lot with people on beliefs and getting them to think about okay, what's formed that belief, and how can we start to just nudge the edges of what they see themselves as capable of. And once you start the momentum going, then you can get some major changes over longer periods of time. So, yeah, I love watching that transformation in people.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

That's a really good point you make. And I talk about the concept often of pre-sillient. You can build a little bit of a toolbox of whatever you might need before it hits the fan.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yes, absolutely. And if you're doing good, like critical thinking, then you are looking at things holistically and going, okay, what's on the horizon here? What's potentially going to have an impact? That real kind of holistic approach to your business or whatever situation you're in, and you can't always know what's coming. This time last year, we were all a little bit in shock. It's kind of hard to believe it was only a year ago, because although it was basically inevitable at some point that that kind of pandemic would hit, and the situation that we're in now, we're so blessed in Perth. Yes. But being able to go, ah, okay, right, that's the situation now. What can I control here? And basically the main thing that we can control is ourselves and our responses. There's so much that's beyond our control right now, but finding the bit that you feel that you have some agency in is so valuable to your mindset, your mental health, and to just getting through stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Absolutely. And the one thing we know that is constant is change.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Indeed, indeed.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

So we know that. So can you tell me some of the skills that have really landed well with your clients and all of your training? You run a lot of training sessions. What has really spoken to the people that you've been serving?

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Well, in the context of this, I guess reframing tools. So being able to go, right, this is the situation. We often have to respond quite quickly to something. So being able to tap into our gut feeling. I love using a little coin flip trick, and it's so simple. And I love people are like, oh my gosh, wow. You basically flip a coin between the two choices that you think you have. It's a false dichotomy. There's always more choices, but the two that are on the table, flip the coin, heads is this, tails is this. Where does it land? If it lands on heads, it's not that that is the choice you have to make, but it's how you feel about that choice. Because if it's something we feel strongly about, often there's a like, oh, phew, that's the one I wanted kind of feeling that split second. We know. Or there's, oh, I'm disappointed, which tells you that that's not the one that you actually wanted. So that's a useful way to think differently about something. And if people get the kind of meh response, then I'm saying, well, you don't really care that much, maybe. Getting people to put things in context, so a reframe in terms of how consequential something is and how reversible it is. I use that quite a lot because we often get hung up on stuff that is really not that consequential in the grand scheme of things.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

But we can get really stuck, we can get hung up on that exactly.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yes, absolutely. And I've done it myself. You know, you go, right, what's keeping me awake at night? It's like, oh, do I write the training solution with this proposal or this proposal? You know, kind of doesn't matter. We could sit down and look at both with the client. And at the end of the day, they'll get the same value just through different means. So the things that are really irreversible, really consequential are those life and death things, having a child or I don't know, cancer treatment or stuff like that. So it helps to kind of put things in context and go, it's not that big a deal. Like, does it really matter if the logo isn't perfect on this brochure or something? Yeah. So we get caught up in the minutiae of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

You're really talking there about perspective, really, aren't you? To bring us back to perspective because when that mind chapter happens, especially with that, oh my gosh, I don't know what decision to make. We can so often go into our heads. And Bethon, I really talk to the concept of emotional intelligence, and this is really what you're talking to as well. It's calming our monkey mind, just to see, okay, no, I listening to it as well, because I think there's a lot of validity in listening to everything that's happening there. And you said earlier as well, people often know internally, know what you want to do, and that slip off the coin, just a simple activity like that can just bring you back to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And using certain questions to go, okay, what's the worst that could happen? What is the absolute worst case scenario from this situation? And we get really scared, hung up on it, could be this, it could be that, that could happen. Oh my gosh, it's going to be awful. You go, right, what is the worst? You can always mitigate against that worst case scenario. So it's things like your pre-resilience, as it were, you go, right, what can we do to make sure that financially or emotionally or in terms of job security that we shore up as much as possible against that worst case scenario? And then often we sort of forget what the best case scenario can be as well. You go, right, what's the opportunity cost here if I don't do this thing? What am I missing out on? And if this did work out, how fantastic could it look? What is the best possible thing? And life being life, often the final outcome is somewhere in the middle between the best and the worst. But if you're prepared for the worst and also prepared for the best, then um it puts you in a real strong position.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, and prepared being the key word there.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Yeah, and I'm a big advocate of having time to reflect. I'm sat here and my phone is here, but I really enjoy the little pockets in my day where perhaps I'm walking over to collect my kids from school or in the shower or going for a little walk. Those pockets where we're not distracted by technology, we're not we're by ourselves often, and sometimes doing like a menial task, are when we often get our real breakthroughs, that sort of bubbling to the surface of really good ideas or realizations of how we've been thinking about something. Because when we're sat staring at our desk or staring at computers, staring at our phone, whatever, we are constantly distracted and in that monkey mind, just respond reacting to stuff rather than responding to stuff. So those like mini windows, making sure that you don't always have a podcast on or always have the radio on or always be talking to someone or whatever it is you may be doing, having personal solo reflection time is so, so valuable.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Beautiful, beautiful point. I really talk about self-coaching, and I think it's so so important at the end of the week. I recommend to all of the people I work with do a bit of self-coaching, look at your wins, celebrate your successes.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

You know, we so often forget that, especially during current times because we're so fast, fast, fast-paced. Yeah, look at your challenges and how you're going to address them or mitigate them, as you say, as well, and what kind of support you need, also. And then one thing what people when people do do this is you've compartmentalized it at work, you've done it Friday afternoon, it's there, but you're not lingering over the weekend about all of that stuff on your head, you've got a bit of a plan of action for the week ahead.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

So this concept of little pockets of time as well is very similar to that best. So it could be a walk, it could be a little bit of time in the shower, washing up, even just acquired time when you're doing something mindful, I guess, in that respect.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

I like as well if you've got a way to capture that thinking. So people say on my Instagram occasionally, I'll post a picture of our bathroom mirror and it is covered in scroll, and I'll be like, don't rub that bit. That's a really good idea. Absolutely. And there I look at it and I'll be like, okay, that's before I get in the shower in the morning, I'll be right, okay. I want to think about what's my solution for this client. And I will prep myself as I go into the shower, like, right, I want to think about that thing, and that is my best thinking place, and then I'll scroll it all down on the mirror. But often people say, Oh, I'd make notes in my phone, but so often we pick our phone up and there's something there that we go to or that's popped up on our screen that immediately distracts us. You're like, no, I say, Don't lose your genius. Protect your genius. I love that you say a weekly reflection because all these productivity books or getting things done or making ideas happen, all of them, the core thing is that you review whatever process it is that you come back to it and that you review where you're at before you go on to the next one.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yeah. And in relation to decision making, Bessanne, I think we live in a world, especially within the workplace context, where it's decision, decision, decision, you know, like whereas human nature and basic psychology of the mind tells us that we can't make a decision immediately. Can you talk to me a little bit about the concept of incubating an idea from a personal experience, or if you've got case studies from the work that you've done as well, of just queuing on it, so to speak?

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Well, some people say if you want a quick answer, it's a no. So you need a bit of time to incubate, particularly if you're asking someone else to make the decision, because it's it's easier to say no to something. It's easier to stick with the status quo, status quo bias, dunk cost bias. People just want things to stay the same, and then you have to persuade them that this new idea or this new way of doing things, and that can take a while. So if you're trying to influence someone else's decision, you do need to respect that requirement for time because you may have thought about it before. You've probably been thinking about this situation for much longer than the person that you're giving it to. So being aware of that, if you're just going to drop a bombshell on someone and go, I think we should do this, and they say no, then you go, Oh, okay, let's give them some time to consider it. And then if you're the person who is making the decisions and trying to delegate that, I see this a lot with um leadership teams, CEOs, they're like, oh, everyone expects me to make the decision for them, and it's hard work. I'm like, right, you need to start delegating. You've enabled that with children. We can complain about their behavior, but then we say, actually, we've allowed that behavior, we've let them continue. And it's exactly the same with your team, whoever you're leading. If you've always made the decisions for them, then they expect you to make the decisions.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

And one thing that can be helpful when people are trying to start to delegate is thinking about narrowing the frame. Whereas we just say, all right, just go off and you decide everything. And then people panic when there's too much optionality. They're like, oh, I don't even know where to start. I was recently asked to do a celebration event actually for the TEDx Youth at Perth event that we did just over a week ago. There was a sort of general discussion of like, okay, we need to celebrate. And there was no date, no budget, no specifics about the number that are going to attend or where we're going to do it. And I'm like, oh, this is ridiculous. The options are endless. So we're saying, right, we need to narrow the frame. We need to say, what are the limitations on this? And it's really useful for our own personal decision making as well. If you are a vegetarian, so I think Seth Godin talks about this as well. You know, he's vegetarian, doesn't watch TV. So he doesn't have to worry about what to watch on tell. He can dismiss most of the menu at a restaurant off the top of his head because they're decisions that he's already made. Yeah. They're part of his lifestyle. So if you can do that when you're delegating decision making, then you can say, okay, these are the parameters. Here's the budget, or this is what we're trying to achieve. Show me how it goes towards that. Then you're really helping out the person that you're trying to empower to make more of those decisions themselves. So I think that's a useful tip for ourselves or for other people as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

100%. I've helped clients with exactly that. And you know, when you're in a leadership level, that some leaders can get to a point where nope, if I do it myself, it's going to be the easiest way. But then how long can you maintain that? And then burnout will happen, and you're not supporting your team, you're not developing your team, you can't get and you're you're just creating a monster within yourself.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Help some leaders through exactly this, Beth. And I've got a simple formula: what, where, when, why, the budget, and the support that I'm going to provide you as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Right, yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Simple, simple. And then on the other end as well, when you are being delegated to, like you said, if it is vague, ask what, where, when, why, and what support can I get, or relay the fact that oh, not completely sure about this.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah, I've got a little model that's I call it the shitbox because it's S-H-I-T-B. But there's stuff there around, like stakeholders, what boundaries there are, and also how will you judge a successful outcome? So we talked a little bit to do its purpose as well. But knowing as well, what are the pressures on either from below or above on this situation is really useful because we get so caught up in our own little bubble of, oh, this is what I'm doing, this is my control. And it's easy to forget that there's other influences coming from all directions on the other people that might be giving us the options or making the decision for us. So being aware of that, a lot of critical thinking, like you were saying, it's almost like emotional intelligence as well, as a crossover, because it's just thinking, what's the situation from my point of view? But what's the other perspective on this situation? What is this person thinking? How does it look to this person? And whether that's a manager, someone you delegate to, a client, maybe a partner organization, everyone's got their own stuff going on. I go, oh yeah, this is professional development, but it's also hugely personal development because if you can sort out your personal stuff, then you're in a much better headspace to sort out your professional stuff as well. Because that's the thing that you're wake at night, really.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, yeah. And you make a brilliant point about the decision that I make may well impact you. So I talk a lot to my clients about the concept of empathy mapping, potential stakeholders and potential people who are going to be affected. Beth, and I had a conversation with someone I'm working with a couple of weeks ago, and they made an amazing point and the best revelation, which I thought, yes to. So this person, this is in relation to change management. There's a lot of restructuring happening within the organization. And HR 101 states that you have to consult with people who are affected by this change. Now, this manager's revelation was the best. She said, I know that this change is going to happen and I know how it's going to happen. When I delivered that message to my team, I was well aware that this is the first time that they're receiving this message. And how often is it the case, better? And that we've got everything in our head because we're so well prepared, but we haven't considered that other person.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny, at the beginning of uh decision-making or problem-solving workshop, I get people to write down the decisions that they're thinking about or the problems that they're thinking about. And I say, okay, this is obviously stuff that was on your mind. Have you written it down before? And they're like, oh no. Even if it's a problem, like a perennial problem that a company or organization has had for years, sometimes they've just never written it down. And so by writing it down, it gets it out of your head onto a shared space. You then share that ownership because if it's just you verbalizing it, people can't see or really understand. How it looks from your perspective. So once it's on a shared space, you birth this problem into the world, and then you can collaborate on it much, much better and look at the words you're using, and you find out very quickly, okay, well, that's how it looks from your perspective on this level. How does it look to this person on this perspective? And often these problems are, I like to categorize them as solvable and unsolvable. Sometimes they're things you can fix. So you just go, okay, we need new cups. All right, we've got new cups, lovely. Everybody's happy with the new cups, job done, problem solved. But if it's something to do with the flow of work through the sales funnel into the business, you're never really going to have a perfect solution to that, but you can manage the problem. And a lot of that management, like you were mentioning, that communication piece is so important to make sure that people feel heard, they feel included. And you might have seen, I did a video a little while ago about the importance of the positive interactions versus the negative ones. If your change manager is coming in and saying, okay, this is changing, that's putting it on a very difficult starting point for that journey with those people. Whereas if you've built the relationships and you're emphasizing the positives and there's been a bit of lead up to it, and people are aware that something's coming, then it can make all the difference. But having more positive interactions and negative, because negativity bias means we focus on that negative one way more than we should, because that's human nature. So there's lots of free work, like we were saying, that helps people to run life a bit more smoothly.

unknown 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

I want to ask you another question. I think we can talk forever. Um probably could pretty much. We've got tomorrow evening.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

We have a little celebration.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

We're catching up. Yes, I can't wait. So I noticed just before I hit record, you said, Oh, let me get a pen and paper. And like myself, I've been I've been writing as you've been talking. Can you, and not everyone is, you know, a fan of writing, um, technology is often what people prefer. My go-to thing is writing, and I have reasons for that. But can you just talk to me about the power of writing? And you actually talked about uh in your training sessions, they're very tactile, and you get people to write the problem which they've never written before. Can you just talk to me about the power of writing?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Absolutely. So when I taught at UWA, it's funny, more and more over the years, the students would bring laptops, they'd type away, but there's huge bodies of research that suggest that merely the act of physically writing with a pen on a piece of paper, like you said, like tactile, kinesthetic, it's hugely beneficial for retaining information. And it's funny, I look back at like when I was at university, so early 2000s, I hand-wrote all of my essays and then I would go and type them up, which seems kind of farcical looking back. But then there's a lot of studies now that show that students they don't write a full essay. And if you think about, you know, a lot of writing we do, we might not write a whole blog in one go. We tend to do it in chunks, and then you lose this flow through the work by doing things in little chunks. So we need to get into that flow state that you can get when there's no distractions, no potential. I saw it was like trying to write an extended piece on a laptop, on an internet-enabled device, any internet-enabled device is like trying to diet while sitting in the fridge, essentially. You're making it hard for yourself. So I'm a huge fan of switching the phone off, completely switching it off. And my students would laugh at me, they're like, why? Why would you switch it off? I'm like, why would I leave it on when I'm asleep? Like overnight or seven o'clock in the evening sometimes, if I really want to focus. And things like freedom, apps like freedom, or different blockers that you can use, because if you really want to focus, I mean, really focus and get into that flow state, you cannot have interruptions. It just doesn't work. And I think very few of us allow ourselves proper time without distractions, and it's so valuable. So, yeah, writing with a paper and pen or reading a good old-fashioned book, like a physical book. I love my Kindle as well. Sorry, I shouldn't name drop, but something magic happens, the brain-hand connection. And as you mentioned, like just making it memorable, making it physical, it's really important for learning. And I think that goes for all of us. We have visual learners, audio learners, kinesthetic learners, and they try and categorize people, but I think ideally it's a combination of all things that gives the best results.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah, and the big decisions, especially I'm pen and paper.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah, that's why I've got my dice. I love it. I have a wooden dice and I use cardboard dice in the workshops.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

I can just, you know, give you a piece of paper with six questions on it, essentially, by making it a physical thing, then it's like almost the ceremony of getting it out, having the conversation with someone, or running through your journal, running through the dice. It's loosely based on Edward DeBono's six thinking hats, but adapted to decision making specifically. And it's just that way of bringing an element of play and surprise almost. You don't know which way it's going to land, you don't know what's coming next. And so you can get those gut responses to things rather than going, okay, question number one, typing it out. It doesn't have the same impact and it's not as memorable for you. Yeah, that's my feeling. And a lot of people respond to that really well.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah, yeah. And I've seen in your workshops there's yeah, lots of pen and paper, and then the hands-on stuff, which is so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, that's it. And if we're having fun, we retain more information as well. It's like we've talked about before, Prina, it's a whole experience. There's a lot of food, there's a nice environment. I'm so lucky. My clients are always interesting, curious, open-minded people, and they get stuck in and they I love the public workshops because you get that thought diversity as well. You'll have a HR person and a CEO and a teacher and a lawyer, and everybody brings their own map of the world, their own mental models with them. And so to see our work from someone else's perspective or how they would take an idea and apply it to their profession is fascinating. And we're learning all the time through all these different ideas that people bring. So it's really lovely. I get to take away a lot in addition to everyone else taking away from each other as well as from me.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Beautiful, beautiful. Bethana have one final question for you. If if I gave you a magic wand, give me one way in how you would change the workplace.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

I would give everyone a bit of time to reflect, almost make it mandatory in the day that you need 10 minutes, not necessarily to meditate, but just to sit and think. And whether you're thinking about your work or home life, whatever, just having a bit of a liking it to that open water swimming. We can be like this, head down, keep going, keep going, but we need to look up and see which direction we're actually going in. And it's funny, often after a workshop, people are like, uh, I don't know. I think I want to quit my job, or I think I'm in the wrong relationship or something because they just haven't had that space and time to honor the big decisions that they need to make. So they just carry on because they don't want to think about it. So yeah, making everyone have some thinking time, get their thinking caps on.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Amazing. So have a circuit breaker, yes. That's so, so important. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Just to interrupt the day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

And that would benefit organizations and workplace cultures so much who want to be innovative, productive, efficient, all of the buzzwords that you want to use.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah, I find it really interesting. You hear like how Google has, is it 10 or 20% of their time in the in the week is for other creative projects, and it's so valuable. And sometimes I look at my own stuff, I go, oh gosh, I'm trying to do lots of different things. But then I get my energy and my passion and my creativity from interacting with different people and putting on different hats throughout the day. And I quite enjoy that chopping and changing, just explore different parts of our personality essentially.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

We are more than our jobs, we are more than one thing, absolutely so. And I love that about you, Bethane. I'm gonna put your details in the show notes. If people want to reach out to you, is that okay?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, love a good question. Love to talk to people about how I can help. So, yeah, absolutely. Working with, gosh, just this week, you know, an accounting firm, a school, university projects, a CEO doing some coaching and a few small businesses. So I love the variety and I love hearing from people and how they think the tools will help them in their world.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time, Bethana. Thank you for now. More conversations to be had, guaranteed.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

If you want to meet great thinkers who stand against crappy workplace cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams, then you need to join the Ways to Change Your Workplace Facebook group, which is linked in today's show notes. I will see you in the next episode. Bye for now.