80. Stamp Out Boring Workshops with Leanne Hughes and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change the Workface with myself Kinochar. I love what I do. I'm a global leadership coach, a consultant, a trainer, a keynote speaker, a podcaster. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational cultures. I'm here to help you find ways to change your workplace. Why? Because we spend more time in our waiting days at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Get ready. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace. And I'm very, very excited to introduce to you today my friend Tor, who's already been on the podcast once before, and her name is Lianne Hughes. And Lianne, I'm going to describe you as the queen of facilitation. And Leanne's based in Queensland in Australia, but works globally.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Lianne, welcome. How are you doing? Oh my gosh, I'm so good. Every time we have a chat, I just, I mean, I love riffing ideas with you. And thank you so much for bringing me back onto the show. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

My absolute pleasure. So today I'm going to be talking with Leanne about stamping out boring workshops. But Lianne, before we kick in, I'm going to do a bit of an official introduction to you for people who may not know you. So allow me. Leanne Hughes is a consultant, a speaker, and facilitator. She maximizes team potential by creating influential, contagious work experiences that scale across teams, functions, and regions and the globe, I have to say. As a workshop designer and facilitator, Lianne combines her experience in marketing with her education and obsession, with group dynamics and psychology to help leaders create engaging experiences. Now, the very exciting part as well, Lianne has distilled her knowledge and experience into a few things. One, the first time facilitator podcast, which I'm also on a couple of times. And now, drum roll a book, which is called The Two Hour Workshop Blueprint. Now, for people who are watching on YouTube, there's the book behind Lianne there. Um Leanne, welcome. And congratulations on the upcoming book. When is it going to be um out? Approximately.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Approximately uh end of June is what I'm aiming for. It really depends on how quick the formatting edits are coming back. And then I really want to turn it around quickly. The whole approach to this book has been about speed, to be honest. Um, but I also want to release it on a date which has a two in the date. So any of the the the day starting with two or the second of July, it has to be one of those because it is all about you know the two-hour workshop. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

I love it. Cool. Well, Leanne, I've done an I've done a formal introduction to you, but I want to ask you, what do you do in your own words and why do you do it?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah, I think, I mean, everything that I do is really about uh maximizing potential and performance, but also having a good time while you do it. I think that's the best way. And um really comes back to my own way of working and scratching my own itch. If I have to get something done, often if I try to do it like the traditional way of like staring at a screen and sitting down and putting time to it, often things don't really break through for me. Um, often I get the best ideas or and have execution when I make it fun for myself. I put myself in an environment where which creates that, or I collaborate with people because they keep me honest as well. And that's interesting as a solopreneur. And I think, I mean, like I said before, when writing the book, it was all about speed. So I guess for me, it's um and and this book and my whole philosophy around work is um how can we maximize the best of the moments that we have together because life is so short.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Boom. Enough said there. 100%, Nianne. Uh, can I ask you what kind of projects are keeping you busy at the moment? All kind of projects you have are coming.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Yeah. And so when you ask me what do I do, um, it's hard to define because as I'll explain some of the projects, they're actually really quite varied. So um, more recently, actually, this is really quite fun. So my background is actually in marketing. Um, and I haven't used that, I mean, I use that side of my brain for marketing stuff that I do, but not never in a corporate setting. And I was brought in, I really recently collaborated with a fellow consultant on um on a rebranding project. And it was incredible to do that just to get back into that mindset of what does it take to actually you know create conversations and make a brand stand out, but also um running like building connections within teams, um, culture work, much like you, Prina, and also change. But and I think, I mean, workshops really, it's all about change and transformation. Uh, I see a workshop as like one part of an intervention. Um, so yeah, running a lot of different sessions. I've got a one coming up, which is called the trust trap. And it's one that I've never done before publicly, but I've been thinking about this concept of bringing yourself to work and how truthful is that? Do we really want people to be themselves at work? So just you know, unpacking that. So lots of fun projects. Um, that's why I decided to be a solopreneur, so that um I'm not sort of well, you know, I don't have to focus in on one thing, which is counterintuitive to a lot of business advice.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

I hear you. Exactly the same. It's the variety and yeah, just the excitement of all of the different things. Now, Leanne, your book, Two-Hour Workshop, but Blueprint, what inspired you to write it?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Inspired me really from um an itch from people. So I've done 200 podcast episodes, but I've never done a podcast. And I think it's really difficult to do a podcast, which covers like what is the end-to-end process of designing a workshop and making it so that uh you kind of reduce the overthinking, reduce the overwhelm, you can follow a clear path. Um, there's a lot of philosophies I talk about in my podcast, but none of them have been articulated in a way. And I thought a book is like it's like a one-stop shop for in the information that you have. So, again, like a lot of people saying, hey, how do I run a workshop? So this is it. And a lot of the workshops that people are asking me about, but they're not asking about how do I run a two-day conference. They're asking about, hey, I've been asked to present this concept. So it's really helping more so um experts, content experts, subject matter experts turn what they've already got inside their head into an engaging workshop experience in hopefully the simplest way, but also, yeah, keeping it practical.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

That's so cool. And um, yeah, Leanne, so I've been an early reader of your book and you know, tested out the blueprint itself many a time, by the way. And the blueprint, so while it is called a two-hour workshop blueprint, I myself have used it for a whole day workshop, but I've used it in the sense of chunking the two hours, you know, times three.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, yeah. And that really works. Oh, good to know. Uh not just for two hours, by the way. You can extend it if you wish. If you are reading the book and you want to apply the learning, I highly recommend that you'll get so much from it. Um so, Leanne, you've written this book, and no doubt you have attended many a workshop by others, and you know, in your corporate days as well, back in the day when you were not a facilitator, you've probably sat in on a number of training sessions also. I want to ask you, what are some common mistakes that workshop facilitators make that lead to boring workshops?

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Oh, I mean, I'd love to your thoughts on this as well. I mean, I think that I mean, and all these are mistakes that I made. And then basically, I maybe the book is written for like a younger version of Leanne. So the first thing would be focus on the endless focus on content and information. Because I thought information equals value, and I want to be valuable when I'm up there and put a lot of pressure on myself. And I think um that is a mistake. So rather than the this is the thing, we are in an information age. Yeah. I mean, if you Google leadership, if you Google culture, like how to build a culture, it's yeah, it's it's overwhelming the information that we get. Yeah. So really it's about cutting out a lot of the information and giving people a clear result and driving them to that result. So the problem I made was that someone asked me to do a workshop, I'd hop onto Google, I'd search for it, I'd cut and paste all the information into a PowerPoint, I'd rearrange a PowerPoint, add some funny memes and videos, and there we go. There was that was that was my process. But now what I talk about is actually actually you know thinking about the question and the result and what is most useful for the group and designing for that experience as well, and cutting out a lot of content and leaving space for connection and conversation. So it's really not about me, the expert, it's about we're all trying to tackle this this concept. How can we leverage each other and you know the brains in the group to do that? So that's been I guess a bigger shift from first-time facilitator um to where I am now. I think, and that leads to sort of overdesign. And I don't know if you did this in your younger years, but my agendas were like if the workshop started at 11, it'd be 1101, do this, 1103, like detail and like no space for, and of course, like things happen in workshops, conversations, a question might inspire, you know, and so being a bit loose as well. Did you find that?

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Absolutely so, but that's so anti anything that you know the people in the HR profession or learning and development profession work on because we like control, that that there's this big element of control, and time equals control, managing time and having a wonderful running sheet, Leanne. The other thing I found, and you know, over my career as well, and talking to Pasprina, like no pastprina, but many knows for her, common mistakes. Um, a lot of my government clients, I will say, and um yeah, so a lot of private organizations as well. When people deliver training, they feel like they have to prove it with here's a proven study, here's a case study, here's that, here's this, you know. So you're proving your worth as a facilitator. Yes, absolutely valid in some cases, but sometimes I think we can overdo it by relying on content from external sources rather than creating that conversation and experience, as you said. So I love the fact that you said that you design for experience. So every single workshop based on your blueprint will be designed for experience, it won't be like a copy and paste model, it will be tailored to the situation, and that's how I've been using it, Leanne. And a space for connection and conversation. Aha, because the other thing also, the mistake that many facilitators make is that they pitch themselves as the expert in the room, and that's so wrong. Uh you know, when I'm delivering workshops, absolutely, you know, I'll know my content, I'll know my stuff. However, there's people in the room with brains who've been through so much more, lived experience, you know, whatever else. So we try to garner their information. So current Prina has evolved to use the participants as well. So making it interactive and engaging. One of the feedback I actually got on one of my workshops was that it was too interactive. But I think that's a good thing. That is a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Too interact, that's super interesting. Do you know? Did you unpack that? Did you find out more?

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Yep. It was it was a workshop on culture change and addressing toxic workplace behaviors and into too interactive in the sense that I think some people didn't want to speak about the issues at hand. So interesting learning there.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yeah. I think um, yeah, I I reckon I could be accused of that as well sometimes because I the other element is oh, there's just so much we could unpack from what you said. But I talk about you know including contrast and like a you know a shift in energy through different mediums and activities. And sometimes, um, again, past Leanne, hopefully I don't do it as much now, but I still fall in the trap of wanting to make it so good that I will put too much contrast in, and it's just it's a bit like a roller coaster. So there's no time to really settle in and provide space. I think that speaks to maybe um my my my my mode of working, which I, you know, my personal way of preference is like speedy, fast, contain it, move on. That is not the general population. Like some people might share that, others might need more time to digest content, or their expectation is they're there to sort of listen as opposed to participate. So expectations are important. We can talk about that later. But the other part I want to um pick up on what you said before was um that imposter monster that comes when we deliver a workshop and thinking, oh, you know, I've got to quote uh HBR and and what David Rock does, and like bringing in all these models. And something I actually talk about in the book is actually creating your own framework based on your own expertise. And you don't have to be certified or have an MBA or a PhD to create your own framework. It's just a way to help your content be more um memorable. Yeah, I'm glad that you raised that.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

And as a facilitator, it really gets you thinking about that content and the audience itself and the kind of conversation that it will generate if you create your own framework and whatever else as well. So tried and tested. And I love that element, especially you talked about contrast and energy. And as a facilitator, energy is a really interesting one in that we have to have high energy ourselves, even if you've had a crappy night's sleep the night before, or even if you're, you know, doing an online presentation in the middle of whenever for America or whatever. Um, but then the energy of the room as well. So you have to be really present as a facilitator, Lianne, I imagine, to be able to read and sense and gauge that constant energy level of the group that you're facilitating.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Yeah. And I you're right. And I think some of um I think the energy absolutely depends on on the fact that like that the group, the content. I was working with a group, um, actually when I was in Thailand, I ran a webinar for a group in Australia, and they lead really tough webinars with sort of broken families. And so for them, the energy that they create is not high energy, but it's calm energy in terms of but also focused and interested and present. I think that's what you're referring to, is like that just having that grounded presence to be able to create that space. So yeah, it is, and um, it's all about, you're right. Like I have to run presentations sometimes like in the evening or very early on, and I've got to be excited about it. Most of my sessions are high energy, they're about positive type of topics, not what my clients were going through the other week. And you've really got to get yourself excited about delivering it. Because if you're not excited about the topic, it will not translate, particularly over a virtual call. Yeah. And I do see, I mean, I don't know if you see in corporate, you've got subject matter experts, and when they talk with passion, it just comes to life. When you have other people that are like been forced to run that presentation, you can tell.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

You know, you know, absolutely so. Um, so another question for you, Leanne. How important is it to engage workshop participants from the outset? And what are some effective ways to do so? And I'm asking this especially because of you know that feedback that I got that it was too interactive. I have ideas now, but your thoughts. Well, love to your ideas.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Um, I think this is about setting expectations.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Um, and to engage with participants beforehand.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yes. Yeah, that's that. And so something I talk about in the book is called the power up stage. I've got the Spark framework, P stands for power up. And there's two sections of that powering up yourself, which is what we spoke to before, like getting yourself, getting your game face on, but powering up your participants and you don't have to wait for the workshop to start, as you said, to let that happen. Um, so things that I've used in the past, which like I they always seem to work because they build a level of familiarity. One is like just, and I know you you did this as well, like a pre-video. Yep. Like 90 seconds, like nothing, and it's filming in front of my office. It's not fancy, like just sharing, hey, like, hey, this is what we're in for. You know, here are a few things I'd love to see you with your camera on. Complete this quick um question below so I can find out more about what drives your interest in this topic. And that's just, you know, then you get that response. And and then often when I get those survey responses, I call it the playback method. When we kick off the session, I'll be like, hey, here's what you said about the topic, right? And then I present my framework in response to what they've said. So you can tell you're listening to them as opposed to trying to assume what they're after. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Is that what you absolutely, yeah, yeah, exactly so. So that the the the video introduction, uh, sometimes, you know, you have a podcast, I have a podcast. Sometimes I'll send, you know, relevant podcasts as well on the topic material, which is really handy because it just sparks ideas or gets people thinking about my style and what I might bring to the facilitation session and the kind of questions I can ask and how they can be within the session as well. Because you know, once you get to know someone and their manner, it's just so much easier to it's about building rapport. That's what I'm talking to, really.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Yes, yes, and even just a big smile, like when people arrive onto the Zoom call, and not I've seen some people like they have a waiting room open, and when the let's say their session starts at 10 a.m., I'm talking virtual here. Yeah, they'll just they'll switch on the camera and they'll begin as opposed to there's an opportunity like the five or ten minutes before to start having a- And that's exactly what you do.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

So yeah, I've been so I've been on many a course by Leanne. I remember virtual virtually possible and booked out facilitator. Amazing courses that Lianne runs for corporate people as well as entrepreneurs. So there's a mix of stuff that Lianne does. And each time you hold our virtual gatherings, you open the room 10 minutes earlier. And I just love those conversations. So we slowly warm into the session, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it's the same when you like when you have people that come into your room, it's not like you ignore them and then you go, right, we're starting now because it's like top of the hour. You're having a coffee, you're relaxing in, you're like you're making them for welcome. So yeah, all of those things are crucial when it comes to like how do you get the engagement early.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

100%. And so just uh point to note there. So your two-hour blue workshop blueprint book is applicable to face-to-face workshops as well as virtual, which I have applied also. So it's yeah, double use, which is excellent. Um, and talking about virtually Anne, you are tech queen, you know, like in my world. So, what role does technology play in creating more dynamic and engaging workshops? We're talking virtual here, yeah. Or hybrid.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yeah, I have a um if if technology and I were in a relationship, it would be it's uh it's interesting. What's the word that they use on Facebook? It's complicated. We have a complicated relationship because when I, you know, when webinars started, I'm like, oh, I have to get all about all about the tech and like using the sound effects and bringing things in. Um, but what I realized is that it was maybe a crutch for you know, you can do really be effective without technology. Yeah. I do have a Zoom producer because I what I'm what what I struggle with personally on big webinars and calls is that I um context switching, like I want to be fully present, I want to read chat, but then I also have to figure out, oh, I've got to press this button. That really kind of confuses me. So I learn, you know, what my weaknesses are and then bring in help to compensate. But um, in I mean, and this applies to both sessions, like even in in face-to-face, I try to only add technology where I feel like I can't do it without technology. Like there's no way I can present this. And you and I have been in a session like with Alan Weiss where he can captivate a room for two days and he has like two flip charts. There's no yes, yeah. Yeah. And I feel like sometimes I I think we can sometimes rely on tech going, okay. If I use this cool video or animation, it'll make the workshop better. But some, you know, mate, does it to asking that question? Yeah. But I mean, I did I did run a conference in in Malaysia, and on the first day, we didn't use any interactive technology, and it was really hard to get interaction from the group. It was a big group, over 100 people. Um, it was very formal, like in a ballroom, classroom style. I had no control over the environment. Second day, like, let's bring in Slido, let's see what happens. So, this is a anonymous polling uh tool, and it was incredible, actually, the interaction. So, that was when a situation where we really needed the tech to get the engagement, um, get some feedback.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

And those kind of tools are really good for when we are trying to create psychological safety. And, you know, as a facilitator, it's all about creating the right environment for our uh participants to be able to contribute. Those kind of tools really do help as well, don't they? So that you're talking from an online perspective. And then, you know, in person, there could be different voting mechanisms and all sorts. So you can get as creative as you want. And I know that your book has lots of ideas within it as well in relation to that. Um, Liana, another question for you. How important is it to have a clear purpose and a desired outcome for a workshop? And how can facilitators ensure that participants are aligned with these goals?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Oh, that's that's an amazing question. Um, and I so purpose is everything. I mean, yeah, the why, Simon Sedech, we all know, we kind of all know this, but it really the purpose really serves for me as the criteria. I talked, we talked before around content overwhelm. And so once you have purpose, purpose is your North Star, it's the destination you want to get to. And I use that as my criteria for are these activities, are these conversations that I'm planning leading us there? Or are they, are we going like another route that's a detour? And in the concept of a short, punchy workshop, and mainly a lot of people are super time poor and don't want maybe the detour.

unknown 21:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

In the direction of what this result is. So I think the purpose for me, something I'll write about is creating like a workshop mini mission statement where you actually go, this workshop is for this group of people who need to know this so that the result.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

And the other thing to keep in mind is that the workshop may be one method to get the result, but it may not be everything. And I know, Prini, you do speaking, you do coaching, right? So all of those are supplementary things, advising that can help get to the result. The workshop is a part, but it's not the be all and end all. Like I think we try to stamp out unconscious bias in a two-hour workshop. It's not going to happen. No way. It is not the fix. Yes. It's not the fix. And in terms of the second part of the question, which I find fascinating, how do we know that participants are aligned? Yeah. That's so interesting because often it's a client, someone that represents the participants who will talk to us. And they give us an indication of what they think the group might need. So actually, I set off a speaking agreement to a client yesterday. And in the offer, I wrote here are some things that I'll include for free. And one of them was I'll interview three participants across section of people that will be coming along to this webinar. So, and that's that's probably the reason I can how I can validate the purpose. Yes. Is to do that. Yeah. Actually, one more thing on that. Please. I was running a big conference a couple weeks ago, and I wanted to do some cool things with that, but I needed employees to be part of it. Yep. Um and so I asked the client to ask a few employees to be part of it. And then she was getting like a round of these declines. And I'm like, what's going on here? Because I've worked with this client before, and I'm like, I know that they're team, great culture, passionate people. And I said, look, I'm sensing that your people are really busy here. Like maybe they're stressed, like, because I'm I'm a bit confused why this is happening. So that was an indicator. And she said, Yeah, you're actually on the money. And so that really helped me inform my design on the day. And I actually brought in a segment, a really quick segment, around doing things and being somewhere. And I wouldn't have had that. And actually, when I ran the panel at the end of the day, everyone's like, that was the number one thing. It's just that highlight of being versus doing. Wouldn't have got there if I hadn't picked up on the signal beforehand.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

So that's a brilliant point. So as facilitators, so you know, here we're talking to external facilitators or even internal facilitators. Often a workshop is a pain in the bum for someone who is so busy during the day that they are going to be your biggest resistor initially. So hence the question of how we engage with audience beforehand. So that's one element. The other thing is as well, some of the workshops, no doubt that you run and some of the workshops that I run are mandatory. When they're mandatory, so volunteer and voluntold are two different things, and that's your lingo, I know. So people who are voluntold, you have to attend this workshop, are gonna hate whoever's you know told them to attend, but then on the day itself as well, there's just this big you can see it from people, you can see it from participants, that they're just not present and there. Um, how do you address that, Leanne? So you're in a workshop, you've got to address, yeah. I'm so busy.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

I address it immediately. Yeah, I'm like, I don't know. Like I would I would even start from places of like empathy. And honestly, I've been there as well. Like, and I would just say, look, I've been there, like I've been, I'm so busy, my calendar looks like this, and I might put up like a picture of calendar tetris, which I joke, joke about. Now you're all playing calendar tetris, and now you got this, like this is the worst. Like, but you know, we have we like so I would actually build the objection up front, and I always do it, um, especially if it's obvious. Like when I was working, um, my first gig out of leaving corporate was running leadership workshops all around um Asia. And you know, these are busy construction managers. I've never worked on a construction site, I've worked in mining sites, not construction. Plus, like I'm was relatively young compared to who was in the audience, and I'm female, and the group were mainly 90, 95% male in another country. And so they're what I'm thinking is like, what are they thinking? They're thinking, who the heck is this young upstart from Australia teaching us about leadership? Yeah, I just brought that up right at the beginning. Yeah, call it. Yeah, call it. And it you can see it, like everything just calls it. So it all diminishes. There's no calling the objection up front. Um, but then you know, framing it in a way saying, look, I'm here to start conversations. You're the experts in construction, you're the experts in your own company culture, back to what you said before, Prina. And you know, I'm here to provoke conversation using processes and models and things like that to get you uh to to build your leadership capability on site. So going back to the purpose. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

And it just dissolves once you address those objections. I do that, I do that as well. Okay, why are we all here? How are we feeling? You know, are we stressed? How many emails are we receiving today? And I've got a funny gift that I start with as well. Uh, just to, you know, a bit of humor is always good. Um, but from a time perspective, it's really important to have the right people in the workshop present. And you know, it's it's often giving permission to switch off from your daily business as usual activities as well and enjoy your day, enjoy your time out. A little bit of a holiday from your everyday to-dos ideas.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Well, I know you talk about the balcony, um, the the basement, sorry, the dance floor on the balcony. There we go. Yeah. See, one of the activities, one of the fun activities um is like everyone grab your phone and close all the apps that you have and count how many apps you've got open. Whoa. I was like, oh my goodness. And it's just kind of like who's the most so you kind of kick off with that, but it's a nice way to sort of check people in to like like you said, and it's there's a bit of humor involved.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

And being present, yeah, exactly. Because their time is valuable and our time is valuable as well. You know, it's a two-way street. Um so while we're talking about you know activities and energy levels. So, what are some ways to keep energy levels high through the workshop, particularly during long sessions?

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah. Well, I don't know if it's so much as high energy, because I know that I can still be focused and attentive while like maybe while I'm tired, but I'm still interested. But I think it's all about the hardest part is like maintaining the attention and focus. Okay. Um yeah. And so I something that is I know if you listen to any of the podcasts, I talk about contrast. I think that's the most important thing. So contrast in terms of everyone's gonna get bored. If you just stand there and have a PowerPoint and talk to that for an hour, it's boring. Like it's just monotonous because there's no scene change or contrast or something that's different that will hook me in. So moving from, yeah, perhaps start at the PowerPoint, then you might move to a flip chart, then a group activity, then get people standing, right? Sharing, sharing in groups, sharing in pairs, always thinking about how do you weave in an element of change across the scope of your day. Um I and even having giving permission for people to like leave the workshop room, go for a walk and talk for 15 minutes, like just get out of the space. That's a that's a form of contrast too.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah. Yeah. I always, oh, especially for the long ones, I have an energy monitor in the room. Uh assign someone, and you know, they'll say, Prino, we're tired or whatever. The collective voice. Yeah. Uh, which is really good to have. Um, okay. So, how can workshop facilitators create safe and inclusive environments where all participants feel comfortable sharing their ideas and opinions? This is a tough one, and yeah, every facilitator wants the answer to Leanne.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely ways, but there's also inbuilt systems and ways of working that can come against us, and especially as you're if you're an external, you may not know. But um, I mean, we talked about pre-work before and setting expectations. I think the the environment is actually a key one. Like, how is it all set up? If you've got everyone sitting in rows facing the front, it creates a different dynamic as opposed to sitting at trestle tables or round circles or even no tables at all. Like those, they're there are signals of of engagement. Yeah. Um, being wary of the status of people in the room. I've had groups where, uh, and particularly in in Asia, where when the country president was in the room, no one actually spoke. And then when he left, it was like, yeah, everyone was talking. So just being mindful of like the hierarchy that's within certain cultures or contexts of an environment. And it, you know, in that situation, maybe there's things that I could have done and use that as you know, I've actually used the status of someone in the room to be beneficial. Like um, when running a webinar, I had the higher status person within this government department. She joined the conversation early. So we kicked off, like we would just say, you know, we have organically have these conversations, other people are joining, and seeing she's engaging and on camera, right? So that's a signal to everyone else that hey, this is how we're going to operate. So you can use that status to advance. Yeah. Um also make, I mean, something like a self-deprecating humor is always good. Like my handwriting is terrible, but I think it makes me more relatable, like just to bring down my own status to get that conversation. Um something I'm very bad at is someone will ask a question, and I'll be like, that's a great question, but I haven't said it to the other 17 questions that were asked. So every question is a good question. I'm just gonna be more mindful of that because you know what I mean. Like if you say, Oh, that's a great question, and then someone else asks a question and you don't say it to them, maybe that doesn't uh bring that involvement. But I think, yeah, number one is like not not making someone not losing face. So if someone says something that might not be correct, yeah. Or what you want to reinforce is like the del the how do you call that out in the right way or navigate that so it still remains safe to contribute?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Now we are leading to what I call the positional power that a facilitator has. So whether you're a yoga teacher, whether you're you know a facilitator like us, or whether you are a teacher teacher at a school, you have power first and foremost. And we are very lucky and very privileged to have that power. We can potentially even abuse it or use it to the advantage of the group. So I love the way that you use the leader in the hierarchy to actually warm up the room, you know, as people are coming into that Zoom call. Um, one of the things that I do, especially, you know, workplaces are hierarchical, let's be honest. That's why I left. Um, you know, it's it's a reality, it's a fact. The workplaces are hierarchical. And I know you do a lot of teamwork, a team development kind of facilitation, and as do I. When I do that, I always have an upfront agreement with the leader of the team to say, no, you need to take that leadership hat off and you need to be a participant within the whole group. And for the leaders who trust me enough, I won't share the slides with you even, you know, like please trust me, it's gonna be an amazing day. I will get the outcome that you want, but just join the ride with the rest of your team with me. So you are a virgin, so to speak, as well.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

That's great. And actually, really good way to, I mean, the other thing I started to do on my like, I don't, I don't know if you've got people maybe in HR that might be listening, but when HR, let's say we've got a pilot program and HR said we're gonna be observing at the back, I don't let them do that. So either you're in the room being a participant involved or uh, you know, not you're not observing. Because that creates like you know, the Hawthorne effect. Like people, if you've got someone in the room that's not part of it and they're just sitting there watching, that definitely, I mean, for me, that would have an impact. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

So that's a lesson for me, actually. Yeah. Food for thought. Definitely so. Uh Lianne, your book is uh very much about definitely designing uh two-hour workshop blueprint, but it's how you you curate the session, really, don't you? I love the framework that you have. Um after the workshop or even during the workshop, Liam, how can you've answered this in one uh aspect with um creating safety, but other ideas? How can workshop facilitators gather feedback from participants to continually improve their workshops and ensure that they're remaining engaging and effective, Liam?

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Yeah, I think probably the biggest mistake we make is we try to get feedback after the workshop and you've lost people. And I I still make that I'm still not good enough with doing this during a session, particularly a webinar, is like dropping a link to feedback as we're going. Because as you said, when people arrive, like they've got so much going on in their day. And when they leave, same thing. Like they're not, they've they've got 200 emails to catch up on in meetings. So your biggest way of getting feedback is um as you progress, is actually checking in and not trying to interpret body language, which is something I learned from Mark Bowden. So actually asking, hey, like, how's this pace going? You've got your energy monitor there, perfect. I love that idea. I'll have to grab uh incorporate that into my work. Um, but I think it's so if you do, it's like um something I talk about is the review stage in your workshop. And I give it a good chunk of a 20 minute two-hour workshop. I give it about 20 minutes, 20 to 25 minutes of review, so reflection, but also, yeah, I know, and that surprised me actually. Um, because I am always running to the end. And I don't, I really want to get better at this because I don't think we have like certainly in the workshops, I facilitated so much juice and information that it's like, but really it's a value of like, what are you gonna do with this? What are you gonna take with it? How do you bring it back into real life? Yes. But getting the feedback in the moment because like the survey response rates once they leave are like dramatically low. Yes. Yeah. But also I've had um even because I run like these webinars for entrepreneurs, like after a session, I might feel like, oh, I'm not too sure if that landed. So like I'll just WhatsApp like peers, like yourself, friends that I can trust, that I evalue your feedback, I know your experience, and I'll just check. And I and I know that you and other people can be honest. So it's actually finding people that um you trust to provide that. At the same time, I know Alan Weiss says you don't get by, you know, be intentional with who you get your feedback from.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

That too, pinch of salt. Absolutely. So, but I really like that you review the workshop, uh, you you review the workshop during the workshop. So 20 minutes, this is like, well, for me, really good. Because I'm also mindful, and like yourself, I'm really mindful about yeah, you're gonna, you know, impart wonderful knowledge with people, but then I don't want it to be a one-off kind of crappy workshop that someone forgets and they go back to their day and back to their stressy job or whatever. Whatever I do, I don't know, whatever you do, you've got a high ethical stance as well, Lianne, which is what I love about you. It needs to be sustainable, and I want people to pass it on because it's good stuff that we're doing. We want the world to be a better place, I want the workplace to be a better place. Yes, so it's about creating sustainability in a yeah, curated fashion, which is yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

And and and like I know it is a lot, but carving at that time within your workshop is actually a gift as opposed to hey, we're giving you more homework, you gotta do this. It's like I always say it's a workshop, not a do this later shop. Like, do the work in the workshop.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Do it, yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Okay, beautiful. Um what are some common myths about what makes a workshop successful and how can we dispel uh them to create more effective learning experiences?

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Oh, I think we've we've um pulled on a few of these levers in our conversation. I think the default would be like it's all about the content, content first. That's that's a common myth, and that's something that I've been brought up with because you just that's the way you think it works, like it's just all about the information. But I mean, sure, in the 1980s it would have been different when there wasn't the internet, but not now. And I think the other myth is that a workshop or a presentation equals PowerPoint. Like, let's break that assumption. Who said? And it's something like oh gosh, even uh working with a company, they've they have to do like a pitch and then said here's our pitch deck. It's like, why is a pitch? Why is there a connection between that and a PowerPoint? Like, stop it, let's break it. But it's that's part of the contrast is even like by not using PowerPoint, you're a point of difference already. Yes, right. But I mean, there is value in in some aspects of PowerPoint, of course, and how you use it to improve uh the experience, but not just yeah, let's break that assumption then that's a real myth.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

100%. I've got some other myths, and you know, this is me getting on my high horse now. So a workshop is gonna fix whatever problems we have. Let's bring Lianne in, let's bring Prinain. No, as you said earlier, there's a whole raft of other um interventions we can support with. A workshop ain't gonna fix nothing overnight. No way. It's a long game, isn't it? Um yeah, I'll stop there, Lianne. I had something else, but I can't remember. It's gone.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

When you find it, yeah, yeah, I'll message you.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Leanne, I've got one final question for you. So this podcast is called Ways to Change Your Workplace. Leanne Hughes, if I was to give you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Oh, I love this question. There's so many things you could do. One thing. I think in the context of what we just spoke about, I think, and back to that, a workshop is more, is it's more than just information share. I think let's look at the, let's, let's widen our vision in terms of what are the opportunities within a workshop that are available. And so I guess if I had a magic wand, it would be to promote that a workshop is all about building connections, introducing people, uh, building your culture. You can tell what a culture is like through their meetings. I know you've identified that. It's an opportunity to get feedback and to listen to your people. It's more than just an information share. So that would be my thing, particularly as we like hybrid work, remote work is like seeing actually there's so many amazing things a workshop can do that rather than just that compartmentalized content piece.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Totally. And I I I remembered what I was gonna say. So the other miss is that oh, we'll develop our leaders on a leadership development program, Leanne, and that they'll be wonderful. My issue with workplaces is that no, you haven't developed them as proper decent managers yet, and you can't just jump to leadership development. So we need practical management first, yes, and then we move to theoretical leadership and all of the sexy stuff there.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Can I just add one more thing? Because you just implied another thought. Michael Bangestane, you shared it's so funny. Like when we take people to training, we put them into like basically um, they're a goldfish, they might be swimming in dirty water, right? That's their workplace culture. Then you take the goldfish out and you train them, you give them leadership development management training, and you put them back into the dirty water, like nothing can change. I love that. Isn't that great and powerful? Totally.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Yeah, I think we need another conversation about this because you know, development is so important to all employees. When you worked, when I worked, I was all about development, you know. And that that's the other enticing, you know, employee benefit. You know, if we're talking employee value proposition from a HR perspective, we develop our people. Do you develop them well though? To be continued, Leanne, in a potential future. Amazing, another idea there, Leanne. Thank you so much for today. Until the next time. Thanks, Freena. I loved our chat. Chatty soon. My pleasure. If you like this episode, check out the show notes and sign up for my newsletter. That will help your workplace to be less shitty. It's full of novel ideas, good food for thought. And if you like this episode, pass it on to at least two people who will benefit. That's your good deed done for the day. Also, remember to subscribe to the Ways to Change Your Workplace Podcast via your podcast provider. And I will see you in the next episode.